Are AI’s a necessary component of a standard TRT protocol

Live debate – November 21, 2020

Danny Bossa and Chris Neal Debate the topic of whether or not AI’s are a necessary component of a standard TRT protocol.


”Transcript of LIve Debate  Timestap corresponds with video

[00:00:23.615] – Sam Ridgeway

Hello Facebook. Hello, YouTube. Hello, everybody. This is Sam Ridgeway with Viking Alternative Medicine. And today we have Chris Neal and Danny Bossa. We’re going to talk about whether A.I.’S it’s just talk about whether AI’s are necessary if the thought of that is necessary. So we’re going to kind of go with both of both ways. We have to give a little time to one person and a little time to the other and make sure there’s a whole fair thing.The objective of this is not to win. That’s not it. It’s to educate all of you. So you get all of the information you need to make an educated decision about your health and your well-being. So to begin, this whole thing started with you. Danny, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about yourself so people know who you are? Sure thing.


[00:01:04.355] – Danny Bossa

I’m actually sending off the scientists, so go ahead. Sorry. OK, so my name is Danny Bossa. You may have seen me on the TRT and hormone optimization that I do a little bit work for some people. I’m just going to put this sheet down a bit because it’s a bit much to my face with me. A sec. Sorry, guys. It’s a little a little too much sun. That’s better, OK. As maybe, it’s too much and whatever, so I’ve done some work here at hormone optimazation, I am not a physician, I actually own an I.T. consulting company.


[00:01:42.065] – Danny Bossa

So you say, well, what the hell does this guy have any why would this guy be credible in regards to the stuff? I’m a problem solver by trade. That’s what I do best. You give me a problem. I solve it. Whether it has to do with IT or anything else, that’s that’s what I do best. I suffered from, you know, deficient levels of testosterone. I had every single symptom you could possibly imagine. It was hurting relationships.


[00:02:07.805] – Danny Bossa

It was hurting. My health was hurting. I mean, it’s a huge list. I couldn’t find any doctors in the area that really knew what they were doing and everything they tried that they had suggested. I do and it didn’t work. And it was a very long, painful process. So I started getting more involved, figuring, okay, well, if they can’t solve the problem, I’m going to need to solve this problem. And learned as much as I can.


[00:02:32.445] Danny Bossa

I got involved with Facebook groups and forums and I started becoming friends with a lot of different doctors and they were all calling me and teaching me. I don’t really know how I wound up doing this. That’s kind of what happened. Ended up learning so much that I eventually figured out my issues and my issues today are completely, completely resolved and what I’m doing today has nothing to do whatsoever with what any of the doctors were telling me to do. It was a stark contrast.


[00:03:00.935] – Danny Bossa

And as I was posting on these groups, a lot of people would be reaching out to me, said, well, what did you do to, you know, what did you do to fix this? And I would tell them, like, well, that’s not what my doctor said. I know that’s not what your doctors say. That’s same if you’re having the same issue I did. And a little bit of time is said, a lot of people reaching out for, you know, advice or opinion.


[00:03:19.115] – Danny Bossa

I can’t call it medical advice because, again, I’m not a doctor and I can’t I can’t provide advice, but I can say, well, this is what I would do in your situation.


[00:03:28.325] – Danny Bossa

And I’ve been getting bombarded with messages and whatnot lately. I even started doing some, you know, half hour paid consulting sessions as an opinion only. This is Danny Bossa’s opinion not to be misconstrued as medical advice. And yeah, I’ve spoken to doctors all over the world this week.


[00:03:46.925] – Danny Bossa

I got a call from Neal Rouzier, which sure. You guys have heard emailing back and forth. I’ve spoken to Thierry Hertoghe, I talked to Mark Gordon to I’ve got a network of doctors all over the world and whoever is doing very well, if somebody has an issue, I will send them to that doctor. I don’t get referral fees. I make no money off that stuff at all.


[00:04:04.325] – Danny Bossa

It’s like, hey, you know, you’re you’re in Nashville. I know a great place to Nashville. Go there. And that’s pretty much just helping guys unlearn a lot of the stuff that they’ve learned and educate based on science.


[00:04:20.405] – Danny Bossa

Strictly on science. Perfect.


[00:04:22.445] – Sam Ridgeway

OK, and Chris, why don’t you kind of give an overview of what you do in your YouTube channel, maybe, you know, where people can find more information about you or kind of geek out with you, as you call it. So let them know who you are.


[00:04:34.895] – Chris Neal

Hey, guys, how’s it going? My name is Chris Neal, and maybe you’ve seen me on Real Science with Chris Neil. I’m the clinical supervisor for Viking Alternative Medicine, and I’ve been practicing hormone replacement therapy for a while now and and practicing different fields of medicine, orthopedic surgery, general surgery, pain management. But but I’ve always been involved in health, fitness and wellness. And when about 10, 12 years ago, I started suffering with symptoms myself of low testosterone, I went through the whole the whole frustration with that.


[00:05:09.545] – Chris Neal

And and and I did my best to try and fight it off, you know, and say, well, you know, I need you to suck it up. You know, the guys, you know, don’t complain. You know, we keep pushing through. We don’t, you know, and until I realize something is actually wrong, you know, and went down the path of figuring that out and and ultimately, you know, got on therapy and it did change my life.


[00:05:33.035] – Chris Neal

But I found that, you know, there’s very little good information out there about TRT. And I said, wait a minute. You know, we I I went to medical school and I wasn’t taught any of this stuff, you know? So where in the world are all these other doctors getting their information from? You know, how are they prescribing stuff that they weren’t instructed on? And then I started going to other doctors, talking to other doctors and looking and talking to other people and other patients about it, realizing that, you know, they’re their basis of is pretty bad. And this is a new field that was so vital and so important to me. And and it need some help.


[00:06:10.385] – Chris Neal

So I was telling Danny earlier earlier this morning that I feel that we’re kind of like, you know, Pilgrims’ in a in a brand new land here, you know, because because what’s most exciting to me is I’m very I am a self-proclaimed geek.


[00:06:28.775] – Chris Neal

And I do like to geek out on this information. I especially it excites me to know that this stuff is brand new. So, you know, as in anyone that’s done any research and in hormone replacement therapy, we’ll see how how new it is, because there’s there’s there are many things that people don’t agree on. And when there’s a situation where, you know, hey, you know, some people say this, some people say that, you know, then in reality, you know, maybe they’re both right, you know, and and so we wanted to we wanted to just join together just to just to have a have a good, healthy discussion about stuff.


[00:07:04.385] – Chris Neal

And and I’m all for that. I look at things very mechanically and and I’m learning all the time. I’m learning all the time. And and so this is this is just about expanding the field of of hormone replacement therapy and and trying to help people out, you know.


[00:07:20.435] – Chris Neal

So I’m excited about this awesome word. Perfect.


[00:07:23.615] – Sam Ridgeway

So here’s what I’d like to kind of the format of this is I’d like to ask each of you a question. And then if you have you disagree with the other person instead of talking over each other so everybody can get all the information that they need, just kind of write it down. And then when we switch back over, you can say, hey, I’d like to go back to this and and explain why I think I have a different view or different theory on this.


[00:07:41.225] – Sam Ridgeway

And that way we can kind of keep everything clean. So I want to also let everybody know that this is interactive, so after a couple of questions, we’ll go in and we’ll I’ll look over the chat screen here, finding questions that have to do with an A.I. and aromatase inhibitor. And then we’ll kind of ask questions to both Chris and Danny based upon that to get their viewpoint. So I do want this to be interactive. So it’s not just us preaching to you, it’s you asking the questions that you want answered.


[00:08:06.095] – Sam Ridgeway

So the first one I’ll start with you, Danny, is so is there a place for an A.I. in a TRT protocol? And it doesn’t mean that it’s just yes or no answer. There could be some gray area in that. But because this whole entire debate, if you will, is based upon that, what are your own overview of your thoughts on whether or not there’s a place for it?


[00:08:28.335] – Danny Bossa

OK, so the first thing what you can look at when you talk about this is what are the reasons that people are taking aromatase inhibitors?


[00:08:37.665] – Danny Bossa

So, you know, when you’re starting off for somebody in your practice and saying, you know, you’ve got to take an eye, what are the typical reasons guys are taking an AI? Well, they’re thinking of all the bad stuff that happens. They’re thinking of, you know, I don’t want to get gyno. That’s a huge thing with guys. I don’t want to get going gyno. I hear you can get some water retention. You know, I don’t want to tank my libido.


[00:08:57.645] – Danny Bossa

I don’t want it. You know, I don’t want my erections to go away. And I don’t want any of that bad stuff because that’s that, you know, you think of estradiol is that woman hormone and you’re thinking about, you know, women on PMS and their estrogen and blah, blah, blah. I don’t want any of that. I want to have the manly testosterone flowing through my veins. And as little as that, that little womanly crap going through.


[00:09:19.725] – Danny Bossa

And the interesting thing is it couldn’t be further from the truth.


[00:09:25.755] – Danny Bossa

And I actually want to interject here really, really quick on a little analogy I thought of right before we got on is the stuff I’m going to be telling you guys.


[00:09:35.525] – Danny Bossa

When it comes to your whole notion about A.I. is A.I. is a bit of like a religion to some people, so the stuff I’m going to be saying is going to be almost the equivalent of you. You know, you believe in God as an example. And I basically demonstrate, no, God doesn’t exist. It goes against everything you believe. And you’re not just going to change your mind in a second. It took somebody two years to basically convince me.


[00:10:01.595] – Danny Bossa

And it’s a very tough thing to wrap your brain around when all you’ve ever thought of is estradiol is bad and I need to control it and I need to manage it. You won’t just make that switch. So a lot of the stuff I’m telling you now is going to come across as a bit weird, especially for the viewers, you know, kind of like the guy when you were a kid and you used to believe in Santa Claus and then someone told you that Santa Claus doesn’t exist.


[00:10:22.535] – Danny Bossa

You have this period of like how how is it possible? And say, yes, success. I mean, it had the presents. I mean, what do they it it doesn’t, you know, but eventually you learn that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. And then when you hear people talk about Santa Claus, you look back and like you just roll your eyes, like you just you just haven’t caught up at this point. I was once like you, but now I’ve I know better, you know, you just haven’t made that transition over.


[00:10:46.595] – Danny Bossa

So is there a use for aromatase inhibitor in the case sometimes of extreme Nostalgia It can sometimes be used, but believe it or not, aromatase inhibitors do not exert the effect in the body that most people believe. So I don’t know if you want this to be a quick answer.


[00:11:13.445] – Danny Bossa

It’s an extremely rare circumstance that an aromatase inhibitor would be used in a man. Aromatase inhibitors were actually designed for women with cancer. So as to the thought was to deprive the cancer cells of estradiol, believing estradiol was going to be basically causes cancer cells to proliferate more the figure, let’s cut off the estradiol, knowing that wasn’t particularly a very healthy thing, but it was kind of like, do the ends justify the means? OK, well, we’re going to give this toxic substance to women with cancer, so hopefully not have her die.


[00:11:50.885] – Danny Bossa

OK, but when we’re talking about men on TRT, we don’t have cancer. So the thought of taking this aromatase inhibitor is a bit silly.



So it is a very, very, very, very, unbelievably rare circumstance to take it. Maybe, as I said, for severe nostalgia, though, everybody and their brother and their friends thinks that they are that one exception, that they need it. And over this talk, I’ll demonstrate how that’s not entirely true.


[00:12:18.815] – Sam Ridgeway

OK, that’s great.  And then, Chris, we’ll get it over. Just an overview from you, because then we can go into certain things like what’s going to happen to you if you do take it in other topics that spin off of this. But an overview to the question of is an aromatase inhibitor necessary for a TRT protocol? And it’s not just always a yes no answer. There could be. What is the percentage of time you would feel that just an overview of how you’re feeling is with that topic.


[00:12:47.075] – Chris Neal

So so to answer that appropriately, as as a clinician, I have to go through a couple of different points.


[00:12:56.765] – Chris Neal

My my grandpa was owned a construction company, and my dad was very much of a tool guy. All of his tools were passed down to my dad. And then now they’re all passed down to me and I’m very much of a tool guy. So when it comes to fixing anything, I literally might pull out a tool from the nineteen forties that works great, you know. So but it depends on what I’m working on, you know. So I see Anastrozole as a tool, you know.


[00:13:22.175] – Chris Neal

I don’t and I agree with Danny. So like more than, you know, I agree with you so much that that AI’s are very much like a religion. And I think I’ll take it a step further. I think HRT, for some people,  are very much like a religion to certain aspects that people tend to idolize one way of thinking or even one YouTube personality. You know, they’ll say, and I’ll put it this way, I’ll have guys come to me as a patient and they’ll say, you know, they’ve never been on testosterone therapy before.


[00:13:55.565] – Chris Neal

They have all the symptoms they’ve been researching for months and they know it all. So they come to me and they say, well, I follow such and such on YouTube and I want to feel and look exactly like him. So I have to be on his protocol, you know, and and I’ll tell him, OK, well well, we really don’t know what how your body’s going to respond.


[00:14:15.965] – Chris Neal

You know, you are your own person.


[00:14:17.435] – Chris Neal

Everybody’s very different and like, no, no, no, no, I need to take my protocol, like this person, you know? And that’s that’s the idolatry comes in because and that’s the problem that HRT suffers with Western medicine is that Western medicine doesn’t know how to treat anything that doesn’t pass through a rotating door like we have to be able to individualize things so in order to do that appropriately, we have to see we have to see our patients as as individuals.


[00:14:43.695] – Chris Neal

So I would so so anyway, these guys, they want to get started a very specific way and for whatever reason. And I tell them, okay, that’s that’s not necessarily what I would recommend. You might that might be your path maybe. But, you know, maybe not because you’re different. And then I get a call from them three, four, six, eight weeks later and they’re having all kinds of issues. And like, why?


[00:15:03.965] – Chris Neal

Why is this happening? This doesn’t make any sense. I’m supposed to feel just like the YouTube person, you know, and it does it doesn’t it doesn’t work that way, you know, and that doesn’t matter whether it’s with AI’s or with testosterone dose or with, you know, any anything, anything having to do with HRT. Because really, when it comes to optimization, in order to truly optimize something, you have to be able to look at it as a look at the patient, as an individual and have the tools and utilize the tools and understanding appropriately to get them where they need to be.


[00:15:34.115] – Chris Neal

You know, and that’s not that’s not always a one way answer, I think. So I tell guys very often, you don’t need to be on an A.I., you know, because based on their their mechanism, their bodies just do better without it. And then I have other guys that if they’re not on an A.I. than their a mess, I will say that, yes, Anastrozole’s original creation was for breast cancer, the typical start. And that’s that’s breast cancer, specifically a certain breast cancers, you know, basically feed off of estrogen.


[00:16:07.835] – Chris Neal

So the standard dose, the standard starting dose for women with breast cancer for Anastrozole is one milligram a day. And that’s that’s a huge, huge dose for any guy on TRT. And and that’s so so taking a small fraction of that is not going to give you the same results as, you know, obviously every day.


[00:16:27.515] – Chris Neal

But I’ve had endocrinologist, you know, give patients, you know, one hundred milligrams of of of testosterone every two weeks and put them on one milligram of Anastrozole per day. And this is how this is how it works. Everybody takes it. And it’s like, wow.


[00:16:42.005] – Chris Neal

Oh, my God, no, that’s not how you use the tools. So anyway, I’m a tool guy and I and I think I like to have access to every tool possible, you know, for me. And I don’t want to I don’t want to throw away a tool, you know, I never throw away tools.


[00:16:57.035] – Sam Ridgeway

Right now, a lot of times, Chris, when you do prescribe that, you send it out and you say, OK, this just put this in your cabinet and I’m just going to send this out there, it’s going to be there if you need it, rather than we find out that you do need it.


[00:17:09.725] – Sam Ridgeway

And all of a sudden we’re at this thing where we’re trying to get it shipped to you overnight.


[00:17:14.435] – Sam Ridgeway

So, yeah. So a lot of times we will prescribe it.


[00:17:17.585] – Sam Ridgeway

But it isn’t necessarily I don’t think that we say that it has to be. So that’s in agreement with Danny. So we got to we got a question here from from Chad. He says, At what point in time is there excess estradiol in the body thus needing an AI so in those rare cases that you say it may be necessary, the unicorn cases. Is there a certain level or an indicator where you’re like, you know what, you are one of those rare people?


[00:17:44.015] – Danny Bossa

This question to me or to Chris, to you do you Danny to me? OK, so believe this or not. Everybody wants their testosterone as high as possible. Everyone’s like, oh, my doctor gave me this much cooler, you know, my levels were at eleven hundred, now they’re at fifteen hundred. Cool. And the higher the testosterone level, everyone gets excited. For some reason, the higher thestrdoil level, everyone starts kind of losing the shit.


[00:18:07.335] – Danny Bossa

And it’s I don’t know if this is bad. I don’t want this to mean when you raise testosterone, estradiol will follow. That is how it works. If you’ve got testosterone of a thousand, you know, total GDL and your estradiol is at 40, you can expect that if your testosterone goes to two thousand while you’re estradoil will probably be 80 or higher or whatever else. That’s the way that it works. You want to have healthy levels of both.


[00:18:38.055] – Danny Bossa

And when I say healthy levels, people say, OK, a healthy level means I got to be in this range of 20 to 30 for estradiol know in every single study that we have. And we will find the time to go through a some studies I have regarding estradoil in general benefits and the harm in reducing it, as well as the toxicity of AI’s. I know that Chris just brought up a point saying, you know, if they’re taking a big dose, so if I only take this little bit, it’s not so bad.


[00:19:05.655] – Danny Bossa

The men that are given estradiol will have more benefits in literally every single study and we’re going to go through them. If you want to have better libido, you want to have better erections. You want to have better bone mineral than see you in a better condition. You want to reduce your risk for cardiovascular disease, for osteoporosis, for for Alzheimer’s, for dementia, sexual function, everything that encompasses this. This is going to be coming from estradiol and not from testosterone.


[00:19:41.535] – Danny Bossa

Estradiol is what brings all of these benefits. In every single study where you have healthy levels of testosterone and you lower the benefit, you lower estradiol, you’re basically measurably demonstrably lowering every single one of these benefits in every single study where they gave us estrodial to any of these patients, all of these benefits improved. The interesting thing is the higher they raise estrodial and this is going to be a big shock to you, the better their libido and erections were.


[00:20:10.045] – Danny Bossa

So you say, OK, I want to reduce my estrodial, I want to manage it well, but the more that you gave estrodial, the better and higher libido the God. So why would you want to reduce your libido and erections? Isn’t that the thing that you’re after on TRT? Everyone believes that it’s the testosterone that has all of the benefits and it’s not so.  Testosterone will do about half of them. estrodial does the rest. If you block the estradiol, you are blocking literally half of those benefits.


[00:20:37.195] – Danny Bossa

I only want to block it a little bit. Well, you’re going to block those benefits by a little bit, and that’s how it works. The new consensus now based on and again, I’ll go through the studies at one point because I don’t just like saying stuff without demonstrating my position is the more estrodial you have, the healthier you will be.


[00:20:55.465] – Danny Bossa

And I know that is going to break some of your heads.  The viewers watching right now is like that is the most foolish thing I’ve ever heard someone on YouTube and I guys, I get it because I was just like you. I, I argued you should have seen me when I started on TRT. I argue with my doctor literally almost to the point of physical violence. You got to give me that AI because if you don’t, I’m going to grow tits and I won’t be able to have an erection and and all these things.


[00:21:22.135] – Danny Bossa

And he was trying to talk me out of it. So I went through that period and the switchover took me two years. And the funny thing is that now all of the physicians that I deal with were all. Forgive me for saying where you are and where a lot of the viewers are, and it’s not anyone’s fault. This is what everybody was taught. Even Neal Rouzier, who I’ve talked to this week, told me I used to prescribe. AI’s, because that’s what we were taught.


[00:21:49.325] – Danny Bossa

But the ones that went through the literature and gone through the studies and said, wait a sec, does none of this doesn’t make any sense, you know, well, let me try this out in practice to see what it does. And in doing so, everybody improves. So all the physicians that used to use an AI,  now don’t see you have to think about it. If you’ve tried A tried B, you only want to do what works, right?


[00:22:12.395] – Danny Bossa

You’re not going to just go to B just because of I want to be part of the A.I. cult.


[00:22:17.285] – Danny Bossa

And no, I don’t care what the answer is, I just want the right answer, something I can actually demonstrate if I’ve tried An and I’ve tried. B, I just want to see which one works. If if it’s better to take an AI and I’m going to get better results, that’s what I’m going to do. But all of the studies say that it doesn’t. So they’ve all tried not doing that.


[00:22:35.975] – Danny Bossa

They all improved. All of their patients improved to the point that now if I asked them, hey, guys, you’ve tried both, will you ever go back to an AI? And they’re like, hell no.


[00:22:44.855] – Danny Bossa

Now now that we’ve tried both, the outcome is so ridiculously obvious that it makes it saddens them to think that they ever even gave a quarter milligram of Arimidex to a patient before none of them have their patients on Arimidex.


[00:22:59.165] – Danny Bossa

None of them.


[00:23:00.095] – Danny Bossa

They don’t even measure estradiol anymore because we measure anything you’re not gonna do anything about. The only time that they’ll measure estradiol is if they suspect that there might be a deficiency. The guy has low E2 symptoms, meaning low libido, poor erection, strength or whatever. Some of these guys actually have a lack of aromatase if an aromatase deficiency where their bodies aren’t converting enough testosterone to estradiol and they have all these issues, all of these men actually need to take exogenous estradiol.


[00:23:25.895] – Danny Bossa

And the funny thing is that with these people, the more exogenous estradiol they take, the higher their libido, the higher erections in, the higher everything else that occurs. And a little interesting point, I was talking to Neil this week. He said that men can feel testosterone, they can feel the the effects of the the you know, I feel confident and I feel manly and I feel sexual whatever.


[00:23:48.065] – Danny Bossa

Believe it or not, you do not feel the effects of estradiol. You will sense, you know, if you tank you guys  tank, your all your joints will be really, really painful. Right. You get joint pain. So it’s like I feel that my joints hurt, but it doesn’t cause any type of the the the the.


[00:24:07.405] – Danny Bossa

Behavioral or any type of those feelings that people attribute to estradoil.  I cry at movies or it makes me feel sad or I feel like PMS symptoms also, by the way, guys. And Chris, I watched one of your videos recently and you brought up the PMS symptoms. People say, you know, I don’t want to get PMS symptoms like women because, you know, that’s estradoil related.   Women, at the beginning of their cycle, the estradoil will go up and up and up and up and up to the point of the day of ovulation.


[00:24:36.835] – Danny Bossa

And that’s when their estradoil is the highest. That is when they have the highest libido. That’s when they feel their best. That’s what my wife wants to jump me that day when her estrogen is the highest. And after that day, estradoil will start to go down and go down and just start to feel more and more miserable. There’s a little peak again after. But on the week of the PMS, that estrogen is tanking. Progesterone is also coming up, which is basically kind of enticing to the effects of estrogen.


[00:25:05.185] – Danny Bossa

And that’s when the women feel their worst is when estrogen is completely tanked. As soon as they get their period rstradoil starts coming back up. Guess what? They start feeling better and all their libido and well since well being. So all right, and it’s, you know, stark contrast to what everybody was taught.


[00:25:24.585] – Sam Ridgeway

All right, Chris, you’ve heard Danny’s explanation of that, and what would you say to the same thing on Chad’s question? Is there an excess estradoil number or something or a place where you would feel it was definitely necessary?


[00:25:37.605] – Sam Ridgeway

And then anything in Danny’s explanation that you say, you know what? Here’s how I think or here’s where I think the science takes us.


[00:25:45.855] – Chris Neal

Yeah, so great. So so I have I have a couple that I made a couple of notes. I want to try and try and break that down as much as I can. The. So so the the the idea that estradiol is you well, let me let me start with the PMS first, because I don’t want to.


[00:26:11.175] – Chris Neal

I don’t want to. I don’t want to miss that. Now, the the majority or a good majority of the estradiol that’s that’s formed in women and I don’t know I don’t know how many women are out there, you know, that that you guys work with or not.


[00:26:25.005] – Chris Neal

But but we work with a lot of women, premenopausal, postmenopausal, menopausal, you know, with all different all different ages and stages, estrogen dominance and all kinds of issues. So so the the issue is that there are waves, like you mentioned, their waves of estradiol that that float up and float down there are their waves of of estrogen are in the case of PMS are are imbalanced. Usually there’s there’s too high of estrogen that’s rising, you know, and and certain things happen.


[00:26:57.315] – Chris Neal

Ovulation. Yes. And the initiation of the period. But we know that estrogen, the good majority of it starts out as testosterone and it’s converted aromatised from testosterone into estrogen. So the testosterone levels are also higher during those those times, too.



So so I’m not so but the the estrogen, the the estrogen waves are also very much tied to many symptoms, too. So I’m not saying estrogen is all bad, but I’m also not saying estrogen is all good either. You need to have a good balance of of estrogen.


[00:27:35.175] – Chris Neal

And everybody, like I said before, everybody is very different. But it is important to to have to have some estrogen.


[00:27:41.835] – Chris Neal

A lot of the studies out there, they they completely negate the aromatase enzyme, completely block that or they they you know, there that’s the problem with studies is studies are very they’re they’re oftentimes not very realistic and practical settings, you know, because you’re either looking at mice or you’re looking at I saw one study where where they’re comparing just testosterone therapy to therapy, where you’re just taking an AI and SARMs, you know, and I don’t like who does that.


[00:28:18.165] – Chris Neal

So, like, so so, you know, how we attribute and that’s the problem with it’s one of the biggest problems I’ve found with with Western medicine is that so often we try and categorize people and try our best to put people on the same thing, you know, and I wish so badly that my job was so easy that I could just forget about, you know, that that type of that tool. Well, you know what? We don’t have to worry about that.


[00:28:47.175] – Chris Neal

I don’t even have to check it. We don’t have to look at it, you know? Well, let’s just put everybody on the same, you know, and and it doesn’t it doesn’t work that way because it once you see enough people like you, you actually go through, you know, the people that are like that that don’t have to be on an A.I. at all, you know, because their levels of estrogen are right where they need to be at the given dosage of testosterone.


[00:29:11.715] – Chris Neal

And they’re in balance, they feel, which is what’s important. They feel awesome. You know, they’re getting all the benefits. They’re not having any side effects. And so then we see other guys that, you know, on varying doses of testosterone, they’re having estrogen issues, you know, and and what do you do in a case like that? I’ve seen patients that come from other doctors, you know, and this is the thing that that is that’s lost a lot of times in studies and it’s lost a lot of times when you talk to other clinics.


[00:29:42.225] – Chris Neal

So many patients come from other clinics to to us and to me to be worked on because they go years, you know, with their doctor only using certain tools. And they come to me and they say, well, you know, my doctor refuses to use this or whatever. My doctor will only do this, you know, and he tells me I don’t need that at all and I’ve never, ever felt good. What do we do? Are we so so we have to have he’s going to want to go to somebody that that knows how and understands how to use all the tools available to get them where they need to be.


[00:30:17.165] – Chris Neal

And you just you can’t always find that in a study. We can learn some we can learn some interesting stuff about the mechanics. I agree with you. As far as the estrogen goes, to some extent I think you can feel estrogen, you know. So or else why in the world are we even talking about it? So I think I think you can feel estrogen when estrogen is added at its best place. You can tell if you’re really in tune with your body.


[00:30:40.305] – Chris Neal

You know, if it’s too low, bad if it’s too if it’s too high and you’re having symptoms, which is the reason why I’m driven by how you feel. You know, if it’s too high and you’re having issues, you know, we look at many different factors, including your estrogen. We always look at that. We don’t ignore it. And and we we adjust everything appropriately until that patient’s dialed in. So they’re not going to be the type of person that, you know, comes to our clinic.


[00:31:07.965] – Chris Neal

And, you know, which I imagine, you know, this happens at clinics all the time. You know, if they don’t get dialed in, you know, then then they’re going to go somewhere else. And if they go somewhere else, then I wouldn’t know, you know? So I’m going to think, hey, my my protocol is working great. All of my patients are doing great, you know, but it’s because the patients that aren’t doing great have left.


[00:31:30.115] – Chris Neal

You know, so so that’s that’s that. So I like to be open to everything, especially in something so new, in something that is so challenging and so controversial, I like to be open to it and then educate the patients as best I can use it as a tool, not as something that is like a hard line religion like we talked about before.


[00:31:49.735] – Danny Bossa

Can I ask two questions really quick, based on what you just said?


[00:31:54.595] – Danny Bossa

So, you know, you’re saying that using a tool and whatnot, what will, in your opinion, higher levels of estradiol do? What are the things that men are going to say? I know how you’re going to answer. I just want to hear it. You know, my E2 is high because I feel like this. This is. And the other thing is. How is it possible that every single physician I know that used to use an AI and now doesn’t use an AI for any other patients, so collectively we’re talking several tens of thousands of patients, including every guy I’ve worked with.


[00:32:30.215] – Danny Bossa

Why is it that they experience none of those E2 issues whatsoever?


[00:32:38.395] – Chris Neal

Well, the to the first the first question, what what happened?


[00:32:44.815] – Chris Neal

So so if someone if someone calls me up and says I’m having symptoms because my estrogen level is on my wall or stop right there, stop right there, tell me first how you feel.


[00:32:56.215] – Chris Neal

You know, and I intentionally don’t even look at the labs until we go over how they feel and what’s going on. And then we think about the the you know, what they’re taking, how much testosterone they’re taking, how they’re taking it, you know, and the other factors that are involved, because in many cases, it’s not their estrogen at all. And and then so and they’ll know if it comes to the point of it. Once we do look at their labs and I go by what I go by how the patient feels.


[00:33:22.735] – Chris Neal

So I, I think too many clinics and too many doctors out there, which and this is how we’re trained in medical school. We are trained to take the labs, a piece of paper like this, not the patient, but look at a piece of paper like this and say, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.


[00:33:36.055] – Chris Neal

This is what you need to be on, you know.  HI. By the way, how are you doing? You know, and and it’s and it’s wrong. So so I’ve seen patients where and this is this is how this I feel is a more open way of practicing medicine. So I’ll see a patient that, let’s say, has an estradoil of, you know, 60, which in my opinion, I don’t think is that bad, you know, but but what’s going to determine whether that’s bad or not bad is his symptoms, you know, his issues.


[00:34:08.875] – Chris Neal

If everything else is going perfect, if everything else is fine. We’ve tried adjusting micro dosing and, you know, doing and doing different things. And he’s still having issues then. Yes. Maybe instituting some Anastrazole or if not an Anastrazole, we have plenty of other tools.


[00:34:22.345] – Chris Neal

Exemestane, Letrozole, I’ve I’ve even formulated my own my own version of an estrogen blocker because Anastrazoleis not perfect for everybody, you know, so so our Viking estrogen control, which is which is working out really well for people. So, so and when and we we we work on things and we experiment because this is something completely new to that person, you know, specifically to that person. And once we get them on therapy, you know, and he comes back in, ah, we get them rolling with the new protocol.


[00:34:53.515] – Chris Neal

We get them back in in six or eight weeks. You know, his estra estradiol, maybe it’s maybe it’s fifty, maybe it’s forty five, maybe it’s twenty five. And he comes back and he says, I feel awesome now,  I am dialed in, I feel great, I’m having all of my benefits. I love it. Please don’t change anything. I’m perfect, you know. So I call that individually, I call that a win.


[00:35:17.725] – Chris Neal

You know, I’m I’m not. And it’s no matter –  I don’t care what tool we use, as long as it’s as long as it’s safe obviously. But like but but that is a win, you know, then, you know, on the other hand, I have other guys that will that that that I work with and they call they call me up and they say, Chris, I feel awesome. Everything is perfect. I’m feeling wonderful.


[00:35:35.365] – Chris Neal

And by the way, I’m not taking any I I’m like, OK, but you feel great. You feel you feel good. And everything is everything is kicked off. Everything’s awesome. I look at their labs their estradoil’s 95.  Like OK, you know. Great. Well we know it’s in ninety five but this is you and you feel great. Who am I to like try and try and make you feel worse just because I think that you need to be on a pill, you know, and I think that’s the problem where a lot of clinics run into


[00:35:57.985] – Sam Ridgeway

what are some of the symptoms that you if somebody came to you and you had to guess and say, OK, I think that I’m going to look at their estrogen, what would be some of the symptoms some might come to us with?


[00:36:07.735] – Sam Ridgeway

And you’d say, OK, if I were a betting man, I bet it was estrogen.


[00:36:12.935] – Chris Neal

Well, I tell every single one of my patients that that are brand new with TRT that all of your hormones are important. They’re all important. And there’s there’s a sweet spot or a zone for all of them to be. You don’t want your estrogen to be too low and you don’t want to be too high. If it’s too high, you typically will.


[00:36:31.985] – Chris Neal

You can experience fatigue, water, weight gain, poor motivation, difficulty maintaining a strong erection, mood, instability, depression, anxiety, you know, maybe acne. Gyno is kind of one of the later things to come. It’s not always, you know, you know, as common as people think it is, blood pressure issues even, you know, so so those are possibilities of things that could not to say it’s going to happen to every single person when they get to an estrasoil of 65.


[00:37:00.905] – Chris Neal

I think that’s the problem with with studies and a lot of Western medicine. We’re so regimented and we want to make things so, so fit in a box to make it easy for us. And it’s not easy.


[00:37:12.475] – Sam Ridgeway

OK, and then let me ask you this question, because a lot of time, this whole estrogen thing for a lot of people and I’ve seen it over and over comes down to if you’re estrogen is too high, then your testosterone is too high.


[00:37:23.635] – Sam Ridgeway

That’s that’s kind of the common the common theme between that and the common thought. So if I pass that over to you, Danny, if someone’s estrogen is too high, is that true? It’s because they’re taking too much testosterone beyond what their body wants. Or how do you feel about that sort of thought process that people have?


[00:37:43.615] – Danny Bossa

So the issue here is that everything you guys are saying is based on the notion of estradiol in higher amounts causes these issues. So we need to keep.


[00:37:55.345] – Chris Neal

I didn’t say that. No, I didn’t say that.


[00:37:57.565] – Danny Bossa

What you’re talking about, you said at higher levels you just mentioned cause fatigue, water gain, motivation issues, erection problems, depression, anxiety.


[00:38:05.365] – Chris Neal

Know that they may may cause I say it depends on the Pammi. OK, may cause.


[00:38:10.345] – Danny Bossa

So let’s say let’s clarify in some men those things can occur.


[00:38:15.735] – Chris Neal

It’s possible, yeah.


[00:38:17.165] – Danny Bossa

OK, so the interesting thing is that it’s testosterone that will increase fluid retention over time, which is transient. It’s not the estradiol that does that. It’s transient and typically dissipates over time. You can take a mild over-the-counter diuretic. So if you want to really accelerate flushing out that water and once it’s flushed out, it typically does not come back. So it hasn’t come back and estradoil levels are the same.


[00:38:46.335] – Danny Bossa

Guess what, it wasn’t the estradoil. Erections, erections are heavily driven by estradiol levels. And when I say heavily driven, I’m not saying, you know, if you take too much, it hurts your erections. No, in every single study. And I’m going to go through them after where they gave estradoil your erection strength improved. If you want libido and erections, you want estradiol. And the more of it, the better it’s going to improve.


[00:39:12.525] – Danny Bossa

And again, I know you’re looking at me saying this guy is this high. I get it.


[00:39:18.945] – Chris Neal

No, I’m actually not.


[00:39:20.295] – Chris Neal

I’m not. I think that, you know, it’s I think that like I’m not saying estrogen does play a part in erections for sure. It does. And we know that because if I just open up the box and start fooling with the dial, something’s going to happen with your erections, you know, either good or bad, you know, and that’s what I’m saying. Like, so so, you know, but, you know, that’s the thing.



We just have to be open enough to see all of the dials and actually look at them, you know.


[00:39:50.925] – Sam Ridgeway

Right. But I do personally, I, I personally, if my estrogen and that’s why one of the reasons why somebody on the chat thing had asked that as well, they said basically Jeremy said that the VA won’t prescribe AI, but the VA won’t let your testosterone levels go above 800 either. So they go above 88, then they bring you back down. So there may not need. So that was the kind of the question on at what point in time is your testosterone level too high if you do need an AI.


[00:40:18.105] – Sam Ridgeway

But personally, if I don’t keep my estrogen in check, I have all of the what I would call the classic symptoms of the excess water. I have brain fog there, sexual issues. I have those problems, as do a lot of other people. Now, again, I do I have a percentage of people that don’t need it to do need. I don’t personally have that, but I do know that that is real for a lot of people.


[00:40:44.535] – Sam Ridgeway

So I don’t think that we used to discredit that altogether. But go ahead, Dan.


[00:40:48.495] – Danny Bossa

If you if you were to take the position of I’m going to assume it’s not the estradiol. So if it’s not the estradoil, what is causing these issues? Imagine you eliminate that variable from your argument and say, I know it’s not the estradoil there’s nothing in the medical literature that states anything that demonstrates that estradiol does any of these things. I’m going to eliminate that. Now, let me focus on what’s left. Can I alter frequency of injection, can I help or maybe they need more testosterone, they need less testosterone in every single case, in every single case.


[00:41:23.635] – Danny Bossa

Just a tweak of their protocol will eventually get them feeling as good or better than they did before without the aromatase inhibitor.


[00:41:30.355] – Danny Bossa

I’ll give you a very fast example, and I’m just going to use me as an example. I was so tied to taking an AI the reason I wanted to take an A.I. is prior to TRT, I had really bad gynecomastia. I actually did a video about it and I knew I was deficient in testosterone. So I said I got to take test, but I’m going to need the A.I. to make sure this gyno doesn’t get any worse. And the interesting thing is the entire time I took the A.I., all of my chest fat remained actually got worse.


[00:41:59.065] – Danny Bossa

The gyno pretty much stayed where it was. It was always kind of tender. And with time when I decided not to take the aromatase inhibitor, I started actually figuring out ways of tweaking my protocol. I brought my testosterone levels up because back then I was like giving myself one injection a week and I don’t do well with one injection a week. I figured out for me every other day shots was the best way to do it. I was able to continually bring up my testosterone levels.


[00:42:21.985] – Danny Bossa

And lo and behold, the more I brought my testosterone levels up, the more chest fat I lost, the more the gyno itself shrank. And I have studies right here demonstrating that raising testosterone and estradiol will actually have a favorable impact on gyno which is the complete opposite of what everybody believes. Most people are getting gyno when they’re hypogonadal when they’re they have tank level of testosterone and when they have tank levels of disaster and they have tank levels of versatile.


[00:42:48.205] – Danny Bossa

In every single study where they gave estradoil to men their gyno doesn’t get worse. Gyno actually improves, so.


[00:42:55.985] – Danny Bossa

This is the problem with most physicians is they’re saying, we know that E2 can do this. We know that E2 might do this. So therefore, let’s let’s keep this in mind and keep this under control and work on everything else. And that’s the part that people have to say. No, it’s not that. Let’s put this aside. It’s something else. When we give estradoil  to men, they don’t get water retention. Erections improve increasing testosterone, increasing eastradoil as well will actually improve depression and anxiety.


[00:43:27.635] – Danny Bossa

When, Chris, you were just stating that if it goes up, it can actually cause depression, anxiety. I, I haven’t found a single study. Every study I have demonstrates the complete opposite. The very first thing I actually noticed when I stopped taking AI it took a couple of weeks and it caught me totally by surprise.


[00:43:44.585] – Danny Bossa

I felt I was able to breathe easier, which I didn’t understand how that was even possible.


[00:43:50.945] – Danny Bossa

And it wasn’t just like a one day thing. It went on for days and weeks. That was like my breathing has improved. This is the weirdest thing. Why would I stop taking AI improve my my breathing like it was a it was a significant thing that I that I that I noticed. And even during the time of taking the eye of trying to get it in that magical range, you know, the 20 to 30 that all the doctors are taught from the bodybuilders, from the bro-science was, you know, I would take my AI and then I would say, OK, well, you know, I’m having erectile issues.


[00:44:26.135] – Danny Bossa

So is it because I took too much in my estradoil, too low? Or maybe I didn’t take enough and my estradoil is too high because everybody knows that low E2  issues are the same as high E2 issues. Right.


[00:44:36.995] – Danny Bossa

And then it’s like, well, do I need to take the AI the day of my shot? Because then or maybe I have to take it the next day because it’ll take some time for testosterone to peak and then that converts estradoil. So how do I time all of this stuff?


[00:44:50.525] – Danny Bossa

For years? I try to try it and I gave up. I said, the hell with this. I’m fed up of it. And when I stopped, lo and behold, I’m like this all the time. I measured my two. It’s sixty. How the hell can my libido interactions with sixty when everybody is taught? It’s got to keep it between 20 and 30. I bet it – polls in my Facebook group to say, does anyone have a really high crazy levels?


[00:45:15.365] – Danny Bossa

There is guys with levels of one hundred and thirty and they said our libido is out of control. Their wives want to leave them.


[00:45:22.355] – Danny Bossa

This is like I literally need it three times a day.


[00:45:25.175] – Danny Bossa

It completely goes against everything that we were taught because where did we learn all this stuff? It was from the bodybuilders. All of this TRT stuff the doctors learned from bodybuilders say, hey, I measured this guy and his testosterone levels are low. I don’t know if this might be it. You know, you’re a bodybuilder. you use testosterone,  tell me all about it. And that’s where they learned it from. The problem is that all the bodybuilders were taking not just testosterone, they were taking a bunch of other compounds, some of them that would heavily aromatase into estrogen.



And they knew that, you know, if I’m taking Dianabol and I’m taking Adderall and taking the I’m going to have to control my estrogen because otherwise they get all these issues. But we’re talking about guys on crazy doses of androgens having to add all these drugs. And with each drug, there’s a side effect. You’ve got another drug and then that drugs,  the side effect of some of these bodybuilders are on like 20 different drugs and but that’s how they were taught.


[00:46:15.365] – Danny Bossa

So by default, OK, estrogen is bad. We got to control it and we have to raise testosterone . And it just isn’t that at all. It just doesn’t that at all. You can let me know when I can spend a couple of minutes and just show you what I’ve got. And you just you’re going to jump out of your chair.


[00:46:31.235] – Sam Ridgeway

Yeah, let’s do that. Let’s go back to Chris.


[00:46:33.015] – Sam Ridgeway

Chris, answer some of the stuff that


[00:46:35.915] – Chris Neal

yes, I no, I’ve I’ve looked at your on the Google Drive with the with the with the the studies and stuff. And a lot of the studies are very interesting. And I’m not and I don’t think they all they don’t specifically address the individualisation issue. And that’s the problem with studies, is that we have to have some type of individual clinic clinical experience behind this, because when it comes down to it, the more I practice this and the more patients I see, I realize that every like, I cannot harp on this enough.


[00:47:08.795] – Chris Neal

Everybody is very different. So if you come to my clinic, let’s say say, OK, we’ve got Sam and we’ve got danny. All right. So Sam is in the camp where he is dialed in already and he’s dialed in on with the use of anastrozole. He’s feeling great. OK, Danny, Danny is feeling great, you know, with on his on his therapy, you know, with the use of no A.I. and he’s feeling awesome in at Viking.


[00:47:33.605] – Chris Neal

Both of you guys have a place here. We can sit down and have a discussion and work through everything right here. Because unfortunately, the problem is I think the problem with a lot of clinics is that there are they either are either Sam or Danny have been disenfranchised in many, many other clinics before. You know, and you can’t you don’t a place. As the doctor, either this or that or whatever he has, what they’re they are very strict.


[00:48:00.175] – Chris Neal

They’re you know, you there are certain tools that use certain tools they don’t use. And that’s the thing about that’s the thing that’s that makes Viking different. So so please don’t lump us in the same category with other clinics or other schools of thought. I agree with you so many the bro science has has been like a foundation, a horrible foundation of our knowledge with HRT in many cases. And it’s been it’s been a mess. But but but we have to we have to be very careful as we begin understanding a new field and a new form of treatment for helping people with hormones.


[00:48:35.695] – Chris Neal

It’s so individualized that you will never hear me say in every single case, you’ll never hear me say that. You will never because because I haven’t been practicing long enough that I know what’s going to happen in every single case. Like, I just I just haven’t, you know, and even the research study, like I’ve had patients come up to me and and they feel awesome. They’re dialed in. And I cannot explain how in the hell it happens.


[00:48:59.275] – Chris Neal

But for them, that’s where they’re at their best, you know, so so so we we have to be careful in in boxing things out even. And the studies are designed to to create clinical boxes, you know, to make things, you know, very strict. This is how things work. And but they but they only give a small nuances in reality, like they can’t go through, you know, a study will never will never be able to explain or they’ll never even try to focus on those two percenters.


[00:49:33.775] – Chris Neal

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that because those two percenters or even five percenters, I have guys that I’ll tell them right off the bat. I look at their labs and we’ll talk. And I’m saying, you know what, dude? Your your your two percenter, you know, like, what do you mean? I’m like, well, the way hormones work mechanically in your system is you’re you’re different. You’re unique, you know, and you’re only like only only 2% or 5% of guys are like that, you know.


[00:49:56.365] – Chris Neal

So a study would never be able to explain, you know, you never be able to pull anything from a study to to to help them. So what’s going to happen is that those guys, if I if I as an advisor or clinician, disenfranchise them and say, I know your your your system is a two percenter, but you need I need to force you to be like ninety eight percent of everybody else or whatever it is, you know, then they’re going to go somewhere else.


[00:50:20.395] – Chris Neal

They’re not going to be at their best, they are going to go somewhere else. And this is all if if this is all about optimization, then we have to be able to look at all of the factors appropriately and be able to dial things in individually, because in my case, like as a clinician, it’s not about what I take or how things work for me. And this is what I one thing I realized very early that patients don’t care how I take the medication.


[00:50:44.935] – Chris Neal

It doesn’t matter that what really matters to them is what’s going to suit them and get their goals the best. And if I’m driven by that then and specifically driven by that and they come in with an issue, then yes, I’m going to look at all the different factors. I’m going to be looking at prolactin and this and I’m going to be looking at, you know, the different breakdowns of estrogen and increasing their estrogen or, you know, I’m going to look at everything, you know, and that’s that’s what it’s all about, because this is so new.


[00:51:11.695] – Chris Neal

We have to be open. We have to we I mean,


[00:51:13.935] – Sam Ridgeway

I’ll just bring my self back into this.


[00:51:15.655] – Sam Ridgeway

If I do the same thing that I’m doing and I drop my AI  Istart feeling what I would call mainstream or classic estrogen symptoms.


[00:51:24.985] – Sam Ridgeway

I started out like my mentor, though. Like, how long have you. I’ve done it for a month straight, dropping the I totally. And just to see and hope that it just clears itself up. But sexually, it’s not the same. As far as my mental capacity goes, you just it isn’t the same. I get that water weight gain. I mean, I just get these symptoms. And there’s been so many times where somebody came to me and said, all right, I finally decided to start taking my AI and now everything’s kind of worked out and I’m feeling great.


[00:51:55.195] – Sam Ridgeway

That’s happened a lot of times now. Is it possible that someone just hasn’t come and said, I stop taking my AI, now I feel awesome? I mean, I wouldn’t say that that has never happened. I just I just feel that it’s far rarer than people that had the whole never AI mentality, didn’t do anything, had these symptoms all of a sudden said, OK, let’s just give it a try. And in a couple of weeks they come back and say, you know what, I’m in this stuff.


[00:52:18.685] – Sam Ridgeway

I feel one hundred percent dialed in now. So there has to be something on the AI side that says that there. And it’s not just a couple. There’s a good, decent group of people that need an AI to get feeling great, because right now, under my protocol, I mean, it’s over two years. What I’m doing right now is amazing and it continues to be amazing as long as I stay on that on that regimen. And it includes an AI, at least for me, if I get off of it.


[00:52:44.755] – Sam Ridgeway

I’ve tried it before. I tried it a month, even if anything did, and everything just totally haywire. I hated it.


[00:52:50.095] – Chris Neal

Yeah, I know. I’ve gotten two and a half, three months without. And I, you know, just as an. And I encourage some of my some of my more precise, intelligent patients to try it know just as an experiment, let’s let’s let’s jump into it and see, you know, we work on it just to play around.


[00:53:06.985] – Chris Neal

And and I did it myself, you know, and and there there were some ups and downs where there were some times when I did feel a little bit better and then where I was inconsistent and then, you know, but that that like I said, that is just me who cares about me, you know? Like what? But then I have other patients when as soon as we get them off, they’re AI mean, they’re like they’re cruising, they’re doing great, you know, and then but and they might be doing great for two or three months.


[00:53:34.435] – Chris Neal

And then they’re like, we’re starting to kind of drag a little bit. And then so we so we work with and then I have other patients that if they are not taking their they are they’re just not where they need to be. So we at Viking, we have a place for both camps, you know, and that’s and we like to keep our clinical judgment very open. And that that’s what’s so critical in this new, like, pioneering of this this field is we can’t understand things if we just if we just block it out because it’s going to be black people out, you know, they’re going to go somewhere else and we won’t see them.


[00:54:06.205] – Chris Neal

So we won’t know how how well they’re dialed in honestly.


[00:54:08.695] – Sam Ridgeway

Yeah, I’ve heard it a hundred times or so. We come and says, you know what? I started that whole entire testosterone thing. They’re not using AI i, I felt great for a few weeks. Like, I was like, this is amazing. It changed my life and so on. And all of a sudden they’re like, I fell off the edge of a cliff. What happened? And that’s what if you go back in and you start looking at the things, I don’t do anything.


[00:54:25.075] – Sam Ridgeway

I’m not a doctor and I don’t make any those. But that’s when we to pass them back to the medical team. They start getting on the A.I. They’re like, OK, OK, I got this thing now. Now I’m sort of sort of. But I don’t want to take away Danny from your from the studies that you want to talk about. Everything that we want to talk about. I want to get those in. So without getting too geeky because, you know, people can only get their eyes glaze over and roll the back of their head.


[00:54:46.385] – Sam Ridgeway

What are you what are your studies that support what we’re talking about?


[00:54:49.225] – Danny Bossa

I just want to confirm something that Chris said was because he makes a very good point. And I wish more people would realize what he just said about, you know, what would I take or what Chris takes. I’m not addressing the viewers here.


[00:55:01.705] – Danny Bossa

You wouldn’t believe how many times a day someone asked me. Danny, you seem to be doing really good. You know, you’ve your body has changed and your everything is shit. What are you taking you? And mostly what I reply to them is like, what difference does it make?  I want to know what you’re taking?


[00:55:14.125] – Danny Bossa

Why, what I take has no bearing whatsoever on what is going to work for you.


[00:55:18.835] – Danny Bossa

I could tell you what I take for you to go say, well, I’m going to do what Danny Bosa does. You’re just being a moron. Like, it doesn’t work that way. You have to find out what works for you, because if everybody took what I take and and it works well, we could just close up shop and we don’t need any of this. Everybody take this every other day. Shots do this and everybody’s fixed, but it doesn’t work that way.


[00:55:40.405] – Danny Bossa

It took me a really long time to figure out what I need.


[00:55:43.105] – Danny Bossa

And when I give advice to anybody or I should say an opinion, again, because I’m not a physician, I don’t tell them do this because I do that. And that’s what works for me, because there are some things that don’t work for me at all. And I tell everyone, you should really try doing this. I happen to be an exception where it doesn’t work for me, you know, but you really want to consider doing this for and accessories reason.


[00:56:00.835] – Danny Bossa

So that’s a big point. Don’t go on forums or in groups or whatever else and say, hey, how about this guy?


[00:56:07.495] – Danny Bossa

What does he take and what does he take it?


[00:56:09.595] – Danny Bossa

Figure out what what what you need to for you to feel your best.


[00:56:14.035] – Danny Bossa

And Sam a very, very quick point. When you said I stopped taking the I and I tried it for a month, whenever I tell somebody to stop taking it, I tell them right off the bat, you may very well feel worse before you get better and it’s normal. You may very well need a good two months or longer because if you’ve kept your estradiol lower for taking an AI and now you pull that out, now those levels are going to start coming up, coming up, coming up.


[00:56:39.745] – Danny Bossa

But all the supporting hormones and everything else happening in your physiology needs time to balance out. And that can take time. You might get water retention. And I feel this. And the next day I felt like that. And, well, I had a crazy erection. I got an erection. And it’s going to be all over the place until you stabilize. Virtually every single guy we ever work with does eventually stabilize. And the other interesting thing is the ones that are worrying about E2 are the ones that learned about E2.


[00:57:07.135] – Danny Bossa

Most guys that go to these physicians that I deal with, all they know is they feel like shit. They know there’s some thingsoff.  The physician checks them out, you’re deficient. What are your symptoms? My symptoms are this this is this your prime candidate for TRT? We’re going to give you some some testosterone to try and then we’re going to see what happens. Most of the physicians I use start off, guys, 150 milligrams a week.


[00:57:26.905] – Danny Bossa

And they said about 95 percent of them. Once they’ve done that, they’re dialed in a couple of, you know, eight weeks later calls the patient, how are you? My God, I feel fantastic. And everything is so much better. Oh, my God. It’s great. It’s great. It’s great. It’s great. It’s great.


[00:57:38.965] – Danny Bossa

They haven’t gone to the forums and learned about Itou issues or this issue, and they haven’t been brainwashed by all this stuff. All they know is they had a problem there on test and they feel better.



The guys that do worry about the E2 issues are the guys like us that want to learn about every little thing because we’re. Biohackers that we want to tweak stuff, and we were all taught that E2 was bad and everything, our whole methodology was based on



E2 causing all these these symptoms. Yet all these other guys had never learned about E2.  They have none of those symptoms. The interesting thing is when I was on the A.I. and I was worried about these symptoms that I would have if I got off, I got off them.



And guess what? I didn’t have any of these E2 symptoms. They all went away and everything improved across the board.


[00:58:21.445] – Danny Bossa

I met a skim through some stuff really, really, really fast. And I’m going to do it quickly, not because I want to put less importance on it, but just to show the sheer number of data we have on the subject, to show you that I’m not just pulling the stuff out of my butt. We’ll start with actually very, very, very quick.


[00:58:42.275] – Danny Bossa

Men are saying, you know. Are aromatase inhibitors toxic? They are toxic aromatase inhibitors, like I said at the beginning, were designed for women with breast cancer. We’re going to give them something toxic that is hopefully going to do something to prevent them to not die. You have. OK, so you’re taking something that’s bad to prevent something worse. The guys on TRT don’t have cancer. You shouldn’t be taking a toxic substance regardless if I said, well, here’s some rat poison –  we just take a little bit of rat poison, it’s going to be fine.


[00:59:15.775] – Danny Bossa

Are you going to figure out what is the lowest amount of rat poison I could take? That’s not going to make me sick? Like, why take a toxic substance at all?


[00:59:23.245] – Danny Bossa

Very, very quickly, I’ll show you a bunch of studies.


[00:59:26.995] – Chris Neal

So what what toxicity is present in anastrazole.


[00:59:31.675] – Danny Bossa

I can show you right now. Go through them relatively quick. OK, I’m going to show you titles of stuff that everybody after this, they can go back and you can look up these titles, you can find size and then you can take all the time in the world to read through them. OK, so here’s one right here. Can you read is this coming out in reverse on your end or is it coming off?


[00:59:49.245] – Danny Bossa

The toxicity of aromatase inhibitors may explain lack of overall survival improvement.


[00:59:54.445] – Danny Bossa

The longer use of AI was associated with increased heart disease and bone fractures. The cumulative toxicity of aromatase inhibitors, when used as a front treatment, may explain the lack of overall survival benefit despite improvements in disease free survival. So they’re basically saying that over long term use of AI’S was actually detrimental to the survival rate of cancer patients.


[01:00:17.295] – Sam Ridgeway

What level did it say to you to see what that was? I mean, like saccharin will cause cancer, but when they give it to mice, it’s like 100000 times what anybody would take other than that. So what did it say? Anything in there about what the dosage was this?


[01:00:31.765] – Danny Bossa

OK, so this one here is again, specifically for women on breast cancer. It’s not for men. This was a study of over 30000 patients.


[01:00:40.825] – Danny Bossa

They were just talking about AI use. And obviously every single patient probably have a different amount of ice. So they didn’t say this was the dose given to thirty thousand patients.


[01:00:48.685] – Chris Neal

OK, so that the the standard the standard dose for anastrozole for breast cancer patients is one milligram per day. That’s a starting dose. OK, so so that’s a that’s a that’s a huge dose and it’s a very, very big statement. And that’s the problem with with research studies we have to be able to read through with with we’re trained in how to actually read through a research study and what they’re getting at. And you can pull a one liner out of anything, you know, and it can sound really, really bad.


[01:01:18.535] – Chris Neal

But as far as as far as toxicity like that level of toxicity, oh, my God, this is going to kill you. You know, there’s there are plenty of studies that could pull you that say that about anything.


[01:01:30.265] – Danny Bossa

But but you have a study that shows a benefit of taking an aromatase inhibitor for men TRT. Do you have one?


[01:01:38.715] – Chris Neal

Oh, yeah, I could probably sum up, you know, but I have but I also have thousands of patients that that can call you and tell you flat out and


[01:01:49.935] – Danny Bossa

I realize what they will what they will feel and what they will, saying I’m taking this and I feel better.


[01:01:55.605] – Danny Bossa

But is there a study that you have found that says we had took some men on TRT and when given aromatase inhibitor, their health improved?


[01:02:04.585] – Chris Neal

Yeah, I do have some actually, I’d love to see that still. Sure. OK. Oh, sure, sure. Not now. So so again, I think it’s important to to see us as well as on the same team as pioneers in this. OK, so our medical standards of practice come from, well, experience and from research.


[01:02:28.145] – Chris Neal

OK, so the standard medical practice, I think we both can agree standard medical Western practice for hormone replacement therapy is awful.


[01:02:35.905] – Chris Neal

It’s absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. You know, when where does it come come from? It comes from experience and it comes from research studies. So, you know, you’re trying to trying to say, hey, you know, we haven’t we have a new novel way of treating people and we’re using research studies, you know, from years ago, you know, from who knows when you know, from, you know, we have research studies to back what we’re doing.


[01:02:58.075] – Chris Neal

That’s, you know, yes, you can you can pull some information from it, but you have to be very, very careful with with the way that you read these things. It’s so critical. You know, because it will it will put you in a in a in a very boxed in type of treatment, and you’ll miss out on people you know, you’ll miss out on patients optimizing them.


[01:03:20.905] – Danny Bossa

So I tell you what, in an effort to save time, let’s


[01:03:24.775] – Chris Neal

so because if it was truly if I was truly toxic, then it never would have been approved by the FDA.


[01:03:30.925] – Danny Bossa

Well, the problem is, is that they are saying, is it down there, buddy? I got here. I can hear you. You can hear me, OK? I can hear you now. That’s weird. OK, the problem is, is that when you are you know, you’ve got to think about it. I have a family member who’s got cancer right now and he’s and he’s going through chemo. Is chemo good for you? Well, no, it’s terrible for you, but it’s hopefully going to prevent them from not dying.


[01:03:55.825] – Danny Bossa

Somebody who’s not doesn’t have cancer is not going to take chemo because that would be stupid. Right. This is the same thing, is this substance is has demonstrated toxicity. If you don’t have cancer, why would you take it? Well, because I want to get gyno with every single thing I have here that shows that given AI it actually didn’t help the gyno, the ones that estradoil was raised, I know actually improved is the complete opposite of what we were all taught, which is I agree is crazy.


[01:04:25.435] – Danny Bossa

Very, very quick. Here’s one right here. If you can read that toxicity of aromatase inhibitors, it’s generally been effective in setting long term use significantly increases the risk of individual cancer and thrombolysis newer agents, especially third generation aromatase inhibitors, have been proven to provide Saphira efficacy over things like Tamoxifen with albeit with a different toxicity profile. Clearly, adverse events from these agents increase morbidity. Long term follow up is needed to determine if this translates a change in mortality as well.


[01:04:55.405] – Danny Bossa

The adverse effects profiles discussed here revealed the toxicities from aromatase inhibitors will have a significant impact on the quality of life of these individuals who are essentially disease free from cancer. Got another one here. The trade offs of ten years of aromatase inhibitors right on the back. It says it talks about women that were prescribed and aletrozole after their cancer was done, had no market extension of their of their of their lives.


[01:05:25.255] – Danny Bossa

You can look that one up really quick. Here’s one over here. Managing the toxicities of aromatase inhibitors, physicians should be aware of silent side effects. Screening for bone loss and hypercholesterolemia is critical. Patients should be treated accordingly. Emerging data on the side effects of. Aromatase inhibitors, despite the therapeutic benefit of a exemestane, observed closer to 582 women randomized Exemestane. Tamoxifen had persistent sexual and gynecologic effects at 7 years of follow up, mainly loss of libido and depression.


[01:06:00.635] – Danny Bossa

Here’s another one here from how so?


[01:06:03.035] – Sam Ridgeway

I don’t think a lot of this comes down to the dose that we’re taking here, because if I take a little bit of sugar, I’m OK. If I overdo my sugar, I could get diabetes. So it isn’t necessarily that just because something is toxic, just because in larger quantities, it’s toxic, something’s toxic at whatever level your body can’t can’t maintain or control it. That’s the level of toxicity. So I’m not going to try to pretend I’m the medical guy here.


[01:06:31.835] – Sam Ridgeway

I’m just moderater. I’ll throw it back to Chris. There has to be something between these studies. That’s that is we need to know more variables before we can actually say,


[01:06:40.175] – Chris Neal

OK, so so in that last study that you mentioned with the Exemestane and the women with hyposexuality, for example, you know, these are these are basically how a lot of these studies are run. You know, if we were to if I were to take  100 women and and I know I’m simplifying things, but if I were to take 100 women and give you a study, you have to give all of them the same dose typically.


[01:07:03.155] – Chris Neal

So they’re all taking the exact same thing, you know, and if and there’s there’s percentages of statistical significance. So if if I give if I give 100 women Exemestane and 15 out of 100 you have hyposexuality, then there’s that’s a statistically significant factor that we have to report. Or if 40 percent of them or whatever, I don’t know what the what the percentages. But but I can tell you this.


[01:07:30.905] – Chris Neal

If I see 100 patients then I know, like, 100 of them are not going to take the same freaking thing like that does make sense. And and if anyone, if anyone does have a factor of like hyposexuality or another issue, like then that’s when that’s when we are intelligent and open enough in order to change things and make it so.


[01:07:52.595] – Chris Neal

So in order to say, OK, if 100 people that were all put on the same thing, 15 percent or whatever, 25, 30 percent of them had hyposexuality, that means Exemestane is bad altogether. You know, you can’t you can’t make that blanket statement. And the studies will reading through through through line by line of the studies will make you want to draw those conclusions. But, you know, in order to be efficient at at scientific journal reading, you cannot make statements like that.


[01:08:19.355] – Danny Bossa

But can you basically make a logical argument to say, I understand you’re saying, well, this is women maybe taking higher doses, we don’t know the dose and so on and so forth, but we’re demonstrating that this drug causes loss of mineral density. It’ll cause some cardiovascular issues. It’ll cause issues with sexual cause, all these different things that we can go through. And it’s OK, but that’s at a higher dose.


[01:08:40.895] – Danny Bossa

OK, but would that not necessarily imply that if you’re taking a little bit, it’ll cause a little bit of those issues and maybe if you take a lot of it, it’ll cause a lot of those issues. But no matter what, that drug is going to cause the issues, whatever it may be, perhaps in relation to the dose you’re taking. But so then will we take it at all? If I know that if I take this drug at a medium sized dose, my risks are X, Y, Z?


[01:09:03.845] – Danny Bossa

Well, why would I want to even take a little bit, especially if I don’t have cancer so I don’t take anything at all.


[01:09:09.035] – Chris Neal

So so pharmacokinetics, pharmacokinetics generally do not work like that, you know. So when you’re when you’re talking about a medication, there’s a dose, there’s a there’s a dose that’s that’s relatively flat and at a certain dosage point. And this is how we determine how much people take of certain medications at a certain level after a certain amount of time.


[01:09:26.585] – Chris Neal

That’s when they should start happening. OK, so if we’re way back here, when things are flat, then you’re not having any issues any at all. And then when you get to a certain point, that’s when that’s when problems are happening. Like, for example, Tylenol, Tylenol right now, if it was Tylenol right now would not pass the FDA. It would be considered way too toxic, you know, wouldn’t absolutely. You know, so so, like you can say, there are plenty of studies that I can read that I can pick out a line in a study and say Tylenol causes liver toxicity.


[01:09:54.845] – Chris Neal

Oh, my God, Tylenol is bad. Don’t take it. You know, if I if you take a dose, if you take Tylenol every other day or if you take it when you have a headache or you take it for a specific reason within reason then and within your symptoms and how you’re feeling for a good reason, then it’s not going to cause any liver toxicity at all. It’s not going to cause a little bit. It’s not going to cause a mediums.


[01:10:15.365] – Chris Neal

It’s just it’s not, you know, but a study will tell you something different if ah, if depending on how you read it, you see what I’m saying? So we have careful with this new field and being open.


[01:10:24.905] – Sam Ridgeway

I think I could come in and do a study with, let’s say, a thousand men. I bring them in, I give them one milligram a day of anastrazole. And in that study, at the end of it, I come back and I say, oh my gosh, it makes you feel like shit, like an anastrozole, makes you feel like shit. There’s no reason to ever take this thing. But I have to still go back and I say, OK, but what if I would have gone to that same.


[01:10:43.405] – Sam Ridgeway

A group of people and taken half a milligram twice a week, a quarter of mg twice a week, would they feel better on that than they would have felt at anything at all? And I don’t know what time or not at all, but I don’t know what point in time feeling great and dialed in like I do right now. I feel amazing. Everything about everything is amazing with me. But I’ve had a lot of time to go up and down and dial in and dial out.


[01:11:06.565] – Sam Ridgeway

And it wasn’t where I started from, I can tell you that. And most people aren’t where they started from to where they actually get dialed in. So I just want to be able to say that again, it seems to be just individualized. I’m one that needs a lot of other people seem to need it, but I just don’t want to go into the whole thing because there’s a study without knowing what the what the dosage was that it’s it’s a bad thing based upon that.


[01:11:29.335] – Danny Bossa



[01:11:29.815] – Danny Bossa

So let’s let’s eliminate all of the toxicity based on I think we can all agree that, you know, is it determinant on the dose? Maybe.


[01:11:39.145] – Danny Bossa

So let’s leave that as an unknown


[01:11:41.125] – Sam Ridgeway

And on men for men, because I think we’re physiological, you know, a little bit different. So let’s go to studies where a thousand men were given anastrozole.


[01:11:50.005] – Danny Bossa

So let’s let’s look at some actual studies on men. And we’re not going to talk about toxicity anymore. We’re going to leave that completely out of the equation. So here’s one right here.


[01:12:00.025] – Chris Neal

Estradiol level influences telomere length in older men. A telomere length is a measure of biological age. If you raise estradiol levels, the more you would raise astraddle levels, the longer the telomere length, the more you bring versatile levels down, the shorter the level, the length of telomeres as per the study of almost three thousand men. And you can Google that one and look it up.


[01:12:26.295] – Chris Neal

OK, so so in response to that study, that is an interesting study, I read that one and it is it is very interesting how so big picture, you know, that studies like that, you cannot take a study and then make a leap leap to something else.


[01:12:44.545] – Chris Neal

Like therefore, because higher estrogen causes higher telomere length, therefore we want everybody’s estrogen to be as high as it possibly can to make estrogen will make you live longer or something like that. Like that’s a that’s a that’s a leap in the reading of a scientific journal that you cannot make.


[01:13:00.675] – Danny Bossa

But if you’re interpreting it that way, I agree.


[01:13:03.195] – Danny Bossa

All they said was we looked at all these men. We looked at telomere length and we saw that the higher the estradiol, the longer the telemere, and that’s it.


[01:13:12.075] – Danny Bossa

Nowhere in this article did they say, please raise your estradoil levels, you know, drink this stuff all day long and you’ll live forever. No, they never said anything like that.


[01:13:20.475] – Chris Neal

Agreed there. No, but but in the support of not taking an AI as like, you know, that’s inferred by holding up that study saying, hey, see, high estrogen is is you know, so so because I have some patients that literally if they’re estradiol, not everybody, but I have some patients that if their estrogen goes up too high, the risk that they face in their wife killing them outweighs, you know, the telomere length. Yeah.


[01:13:47.985] – Sam Ridgeway

So we know without active I’m horrible about it personally.


[01:13:55.095] – Danny Bossa

And here’s then again, these guys are really you can look these ones up high estrogen and men after injectable testosterone therapy, the Low Ti experience, you can look this one up and it talks a lot about this study from Finklestein called gonadal steroids and body composition, strength and sexual function in Men. This was a really, really interesting study. And basically what they did is they took 200 men between the ages of 20 to 50 and they did a double blind randomized study.


[01:14:26.115] – Danny Bossa

So they had two separate groups, one group, they gave testosterone and a placebo. And the second group, they gave testosterone with an anastrozole, OK in the group where they gave the testosterone and the anastrozole, they wound up with increased visceral fat, increased subcutaneous fat. They had loss of libido, erectile dysfunction and dyslipidemia. Those were on the testosterone placebo.


[01:14:49.965] – Danny Bossa

All had improved libido, improved sexual function, improved erections, loss of visceral fat, loss of subcutaneous fat and lowered blood sugar and lowered cholesterol.


[01:15:00.945] – Danny Bossa

The patients taking aromatase inhibitors got worse. The placebo patients got better. And it basically showed that adding  AI to testosterone caused an increase in breast tissue and gyno. I’ll repeat that part. When they added an AI with the testosterone, it caused an increase in breast tissue and gyno, along with erectile dysfunction and lost libido. And they found that the ones with higher levels of estradiol were not at all associated with loss of libido.


[01:15:25.785] – Danny Bossa

Those who blocked it had lower libido and the higher levels had higher libido and the low libido was demonstrated with either low or normal or normal levels of estradoil.


[01:15:36.885] – Danny Bossa

So the common side effects that were reported in the study were for the ones on the Ai’s were body aches, pains, breast swelling, tenderness, headache, trouble sleeping, tiredness, weakness, flushing, sweating, hair thinning and weight gain. When taking testosterone, the higher the estradiol, the better the sexual function was in every single way. According to these ones, you can Google those ones.


[01:15:59.845] – Danny Bossa

You can look them up. I’ll bring I’ll show you two more really, really, really quick.


[01:16:04.255] – Chris Neal

So in just just in that one scene, when you’re when you’re reading when you’re when you’re reading a scientific journal, the purpose of a scientific journal like that is to, you know, the double blind randomized study. I get that the purpose is to try and ascertain and I think and a lot of cases like modern medicine is trying to come up with the answer, what is the protocol for men? You know what? And that’s what they’re trying to do.


[01:16:32.245] – Chris Neal

They’re trying to figure out what is the box that we can create where every man needs to be on exactly this, you know, and so, so so that the whole box theory like that, which is what the what the whole study is all about, you know, does this need to be in the boxes and not need to be like the whole I want to just destroy the whole box because and create a box for each individual person because everybody is very different.


[01:16:58.075] – Chris Neal

So I can tell you right now, if I if you put one hundred people in a room like in that study, nowhere in that study, I guarantee you, nowhere in that study did they actually try and dial anyone in. No, they put them all on exactly the same thing which in which I am completely opposed to, you know.


[01:17:15.365] – Danny Bossa

So but it’s still interesting that every single one that had the AI degraded, every single one without got better, every single one.


[01:17:23.365] – Chris Neal

But they put them on how much anastrozole ? Like one milligram of anastrozole  150 milligrams of testosterone said


[01:17:29.635] – Danny Bossa

no, but whatever.Everyone got the same thing, as you said, most likely according to this. I’m pretty sure that’s what it was, according to the study. But it was interesting to think that the ones on the AI all did worse. The ones on without the AI, all did better.


[01:17:42.235] – Chris Neal

So you can I’m I’m pretty sure that yeah, I’m pretty sure I read that one because, like, I don’t think that every single one I don’t I don’t I don’t think it’s a it’s cut and dry like that. But still the the the it doesn’t like studies like that. I don’t think they they’re interesting to look at and to take some anecdotal information from at best, but they are not good at determining how we how we practice or advise patients because still like I still I’m going to see a patient that is going to say that that ultimately, you know, is going to be dialed in or he’s going to come to me telling me like I am.


[01:18:22.885] – Chris Neal

Absolutely. I feel like saying I feel awesome. I feel great. And if I if I look at him and say, OK, well, if I’m going to take you on as a patient, I base my my theory and my my practice on the medications I prescribe based on this study, you know, so we need to get you off of everything, of course. And you know what I mean. So, like so that’s so we have to be careful in how we because everything we say, everything we say online right now is furthering the field of of hormone optimization.


[01:18:52.735] – Chris Neal

Like, that’s how I see it. You know, we’re we’re building the blocks of this new this new form field of medicine right now and everything we say and everything we do. And and it’s it’s it’s tricky. And I just don’t want to discount anything. Yeah.


[01:19:07.665] – Sam Ridgeway

Let me ask you this. Great. We can’t be on one study. Yeah. We’re we’re like an hour and fifteen minutes into this thing. So I want to kind of start going again. But one of the things that I went by so fast for me at least one of the things one of the things I wanted, one of the questions is how can you naturally decrease your estrogen levels if you if you don’t think that you want to aromatase, is there is microdose going to help?



Is there is there going to.


[01:19:33.885] – Danny Bossa

But we look at the same point is


[01:19:36.745] – Sam Ridgeway

you feel like you if some people feel great on an A.I. and they don’t want to take an eye, but when they don’t and they don’t, then is there something you can do that keeps that conversion, the the aromatase process down a little bit?


[01:19:51.895] – Danny Bossa

I again, this and we’re still going back to the same thing is everybody’s blaming the estrogen. And I and I know because again I was once like you guys, I was convinced that’s what it was. That’s what we’re all taught.


[01:20:04.075] – Danny Bossa

And as soon as I got that out of my head, as soon as I got that out of my head and I said, OK, well, if it’s not the estrogen, what is it? And we started looking at all the things that they are like insulin resistance, maybe the androgen levels too high, maybe it’s too low. Maybe you’re injecting once a week and you’ve got really low issues.


[01:20:21.735] – Danny Bossa

You do better with frequent injections in every single guy that any of these physicians are working with, including myself, that I because I work with guys as well, we find ways to just tweak their protocol and oh, that’s it. I don’t need the AI anymore. I don’t need it. We don’t have guys needing the AI.


[01:20:37.705] – Danny Bossa

And if they would complain, I mean, we’re in constant. Communication, they’d come back like, yeah, you know, there’s this we’re just not seeing it, because if we did, there’s going to be a point that we’re going to say, hey, look, they need an A.I. like it’s clear cut and dry. They need an A.I. because when we get better, we don’t see any of that.


[01:20:54.415] – Danny Bossa

We are just not observing. And then I ask the physicians, like, do you even have one? And they’re like, no, they’re all great. And they’re all thanking me. And I think that I understand.


[01:21:04.545] – Chris Neal

And I see that I see that, too. I have a whole camp of people that are like that, you know, but but all and all I’m saying my point is so I agree with I agree with that form of treatment and the use of or the non use of the tool anastrozole. I agree with that and I agree with the theories as to many of the theories as to why. I’m just saying that, that if I if if I only focus on one camp, then I can fully say I well, I don’t see anyone that doesn’t do well on without anastrozole I just don’t see.


[01:21:35.275] – Chris Neal

And the reason why is because they leave their gone –  they go somewhere else, you know, or or you know, I yeah. Maybe I maybe I drag them along for two or three months. They get better. Good for them. You know, that’s great. You know, because I have patients like that. I have plenty of patients in my camp that are like that, you know, but then I also have patients in my camp that I don’t want to just, you know, disenfranchise or tell them, you know, hey, I don’t know what to do.


[01:21:57.655] – Chris Neal

You know, I don’t want to check it or I don’t want know that that we help to, you know, so so if I if if if I close my if I put on my blinders and then it’s not going to you know, I’m going I’m going to miss out on a whole camp of people, you know, at Viiking. We, we like to we like to help, you know, and really optimize. And everybody’s very, very different.


[01:22:18.775] – Chris Neal

And either either camp, either camp has a place, you know, with us.


[01:22:23.275] – Sam Ridgeway

So let me ask you this question, guys. Let me ask you if toward the end of this, because if I. I think if I’m watching this and I look and I say, hey, you know what, I’d like some of those points that he’s throwing up there. And let’s say I just said, screw that AI, I’m not taking it and nobody’s forcing it down your throat. Right. So if you were to come back and say, let’s just try this thing, give me two months, I’m not going to take my AI, I’m going to see if what Danny says is true.


[01:22:49.035] – Sam Ridgeway

And I then I don’t need any I my body has come back into homeostasis or whatever happens. Is there any negative effect beyond the fact that you could probably feel like crap for a while while you’re going through the adjustment period? Is there any long term negativity that’s going to happen to you if you just decide to try it and see what happens? Don’t take it. I


[01:23:07.395] – Danny Bossa

absolutely transient. There is nothing that like, oh, I stop taking my AI therefore I harmed my health.


[01:23:13.215] – Danny Bossa

Absolutely not. Absolutely zero. Zilch. Nada. No way.


[01:23:18.425] – Chris Neal

I’m not saying you’re I’m not saying you’re prescribing this because I’m just, I’m just thinking as a guy who has no medical background and he should listen to me. I’m just saying if it were me in that spot, I might say, you know what? Maybe I’m going to try not to take an AI. And I just I just see what happens. I get to give myself too much. But from a clinical doctor’s perspective, medical perspective, is there any negativity that’s going to come to you because of that, aside from the fact you might feel.


[01:23:43.325] – Chris Neal

No, not at all, not at all, and I agree, I agree, I actually encouraged some of my patients that are that are really digging into the science and they really want to geek out and understand how their body works and and they’re in tune with their body.


[01:23:57.335] – Chris Neal

I encourage them to try that. I tell them you can go two or three months and try it, try and go without it and let’s see what happens. But guide guide yourself, not by estrogen, this, that or guide yourself by how you feel. And the symptoms focus on the symptoms, but definitely try it. And some of those guys, we go through that period, I work with them on that at the end. Well, at the end they’re feeling great and they’re dialed in without and we we work on frequency of injections.


[01:24:27.275] – Chris Neal

We work on other other issues. And and they get dialed in and they feel great. And then I have some of them that we work with for a while and we can’t ever find that balance. And we have to go with other tools and other sources and we have access to them. And I know how to use them, you know, and we get them there. And that’s what’s most important is that we get them there.


[01:24:46.055] – Sam Ridgeway

OK, guys. Well, I want to thank you. Is there anything else anybody wants to throw in at the end of this? There has been about an hour and a half these days. Other studies.


[01:24:55.205] – Chris Neal

Thank you for coming on. It’s been a good talk, man. I think the more we do stuff like this, the more we further the entire field, you know, which is which is so important. I mean, this is brand new.


[01:25:04.325] – Chris Neal

And like I said, we’re pioneers in this. We’re on the same team. So I really enjoy this sort of the sort of back and forth, this discussion.


[01:25:11.795] – Sam Ridgeway

And I think that all of this I think part of what we’ve come to maybe agree on is that people are individualized. That’s one thing that, as you said, Danny, you don’t why you care what I’m on. And Chris, you said the same thing. Why do you care what I it’s what you’re on. It’s where you feel. Well, and to have somebody come in and say you need to stick in Anastrozole, half a tablet down your throat twice a week.


[01:25:32.135] – Sam Ridgeway

OK, if that is not something that anybody at Vicky’s going to do. In fact, I think we already come also come to the conclusion here. If you want to try to stop taking your ideas to what’s going to happen, nobody’s I mean, you’re not going to die from it, right? So you can actually go and see if that actually helps you. But but I think what we all agree on is no matter what that protocol ends up be, it is an individualized protocol.


[01:25:54.545] – Sam Ridgeway

It is going to be your protocol and it is going to depend solely upon how you feel while you’re doing it.


[01:26:01.235] – Danny Bossa

The big takeaway, guys, for everybody, there’s throwing this back and forth. You had the viewers watching is if you go you again, don’t take my word for it.


[01:26:10.235] – Danny Bossa

There’s studies, there’s literature. There’s it’s all there. If you go see that, that the way that estradoil is basically the regulator for the access for reproductive function, for growth hormone, IGF one access regulation, for bone growth, for skeletal health maintenance of metabolism, body composition, body fat.


[01:26:32.195] – Danny Bossa

You have to say to yourself, why would I want to lower that stuff at all? Well, because I feel like this. Like this. Like that. OK, but why not try to find a way that you can get all the benefits that estradoil is bringing and simply make some tweaks to your protocol that prevents you from feeling this way? Because I do that all like I do it all the time. I haven’t found a guy that I just get to the end and I’m like, I can’t figure you out.


[01:26:59.705] – Danny Bossa

You need an AI. I just don’t all the physicians that we deal with don’t.


[01:27:04.925] – Danny Bossa

So it always leads me to believe if they have tried a and they have tried B and they’ve been demonstrated that B is better, which is also what they’re doing now. That’s what they’re going to do.


[01:27:15.095] – Danny Bossa

If they found that A was better, well, they would all go back to A they would all go back to trying to taking an AI I mean, you have to ask yourself, how would it be possible that all of these physicians have literally nobody on AI and they’re doing well, every single guy.


[01:27:29.165] – Danny Bossa

I mean, I got thank you.


[01:27:30.125] – Danny Bossa

Letters coming in the most thank you letters I get above all else is the guys that say I finally got off my AI and holy shit, what a what a difference it makes.


[01:27:40.355] – Danny Bossa

I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of those, more so than literally everything else that we’ve ever spoke about on that on that YouTube channel.


[01:27:49.775] – Chris Neal

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah.


[01:27:52.525] – Sam Ridgeway

So so you’re like one of the questions I just want what is an optimal ratio? And I think that as the discussion has gone along, we really can’t answer that. There is no answer to what’s the right. There’s no mathematical formula that we’re going to plug these values into. It’s going to spit out your protocol to the side. So asking questions of what are different ratios or something, it’s whatever your ratio is, that’s what it is. And you’re going to have to try it.


[01:28:14.285] – Sam Ridgeway

It’s going to be trial and error. You’re going to have to and you’re going to have to wait a few weeks, a month, Danny-  say up to two months sometimes before you’re actually going to find out that that that that adjustment works for you. So you have to be patient with this stuff and understand it’s not going to happen overnight. It might take six months to a year before you get dialed in. But once I get that, once I hit there, then I’m just home free.


[01:28:36.395] – Sam Ridgeway

It’s all downhill from there. So I encourage people to try different things and just see. What works for you, because that’s really what it comes down to.


[01:28:45.035] – Danny Bossa

Guys, there’s a video I did on my well, not my YouTube channel that I do a lot of work for the TRT and hormone optimization YouTube channel. You can go find it. It’s just called How to Find Your Ideal Dose. And it just basically teaches basic logic as to how to approach this thing, playing with, you know, more or less our frequency rejection and the time that it takes some really basic steps.


[01:29:07.145] – Danny Bossa

And if you can just grasp that logic, you’ll be on your way to figuring yourself out. So I hope that helps there.


[01:29:13.405] – Chris Neal

Yeah, it’s it’s also really helpful to to work with to work with a medical professional to so to at Viking Alternative, you can you can call up this free, free consultations. You know, we work with people, you know, we talk about all of these issues. We work with people that that are not on an AI  and we work with people that are on an AI.  we understand both camps. And we’re the most important thing to us is, is how you feel and where we are guided by, you know, the we’re guided by your true optimization and everything and doing everything we can to get you.


[01:29:45.175] – Sam Ridgeway

Yeah, we have a lot of people that we have a lot of people are doing on their own and are like, man, I just don’t really feel comfortable with this or I’m messing it up. I don’t feel well. And then they’re afraid to come to a clinic because they’re like, oh my gosh, they’re going to judge me or shut me down. I’m have to crush my testosterone levels. None of that is true. We want you under a medically supervised program, regardless of whether you’re doing it on your own or.


[01:30:04.565] – Sam Ridgeway

And Danny, I’m sure you’re the same way with with your side. Just come under the guidance of someone who knows how to do this because it’s not as easy as it sounds. And modifying this scientifically is going to get you there ten times faster than you just randomly doing a whole bunch of stuff you read in some bro science forum.


[01:30:25.025] – Danny Bossa

Can I ask you guys a question? Really, really quick. And I never got a chance to ask you. A lot of guys reach out to me like I was at Viking. They put me on this amount of testosterone week this month HG and this amountof AI. Why would you put a guy on an AI right off the bat?


[01:30:40.685] – Danny Bossa

So so, again, you haven’t determined what what the symptoms are going to be of your of this protocol, you haven’t determined if they’re going to have high etiology you have into anything, you’re putting them on the eye by default as they start right out of the gate.


[01:30:53.795] – Danny Bossa

Why would that ever be that?


[01:30:55.775] – Chris Neal

OK, so this is how I would how the best way I can answer that, the best thing would be quick answer is, is experience. The vast majority of the patients, I assume, say vast, but the majority of the patients, I guess, would need to, should be,  on some form of estrogen blocking at that much testosterone per week. We found,  you know, and this is just comes from years of doing this, only doing this.


[01:31:23.255] – Chris Neal

So I’m not saying we don’t do hormones and, you know, other stuff in neurology and other dermatologists that we only do this and we only focus on this, you know, and we really dig into individualisation of care. So if ultimately ultimately, you know, you’re if we’re focused on dialing you in and when you become dialed in, if that means that we focus very much on the on the second consultation, third fourth consultation, I think it does something does someone a much better service.


[01:31:54.635] – Chris Neal

If they have a tool and they understand a tool and they don’t use it, then if they we completely ignore that aspect of their care and they never have the tool and it’s never an issue. You know, it’s a much more I’ve found that ultimately. Yes, I have a lot of guys that don’t take an AI but all of my guys that are at that point where they don’t take any they know what an AI is and they have some in their medicine cabinet.


[01:32:18.485] – Chris Neal

And if they ever need to use it, they know what specifically they would need to look for. And they can reach out to me. But it sits there and they don’t need you know, and there most of them are fine. Some of them, they might take a quarter of a tablet once a month, maybe if they feel like they need it at all, you know, but but it’s the understanding of their own bodies and their hormones and how things are going.


[01:32:37.715] – Chris Neal

And that’s what’s most important, is it usually turns out to a much more dramatic experience for  guys, too, because I have guys that come on and they and they say, hey, you know what? I follow so and so on YouTube and I don’t want to take an I. I’m like, OK, no problem. I’m going to give it to you anyway. It’s you know, it comes with the package. It’s not, you know, or you don’t say, OK, fine, we won’t give it to you or whatever, you know, and so they they want to start without it.


[01:33:00.695] – Chris Neal

And I found a higher percentage of a much more dramatic experience happening.


[01:33:04.715] – Chris Neal

I usually are usually our first our first consultation is in eight weeks.


[01:33:09.575] – Chris Neal

I usually will get a phone call from them at about four to five weeks, you know, first couple of weeks. They feel great. You know, week fourr week five, something dramatic happens, you know, and or they’ll they’re having anxiety attacks or they I’ve had phone calls from the emergency room, you know, and I’ve had literally so like so it’s a much more dramatic experience than if they were to be on an AI and they didn’t need it.


[01:33:34.385] – Chris Neal

You know, they’ll make it to eight weeks. They’ll be feeling better, but not quite dialed in. And that’s what we focus on. So that’s when we start to tune things and back off on the if we need to or make changes to. But at the end, education is the most important thing and they have the tools available to them. So that’s the reason why.


[01:33:52.555] – Sam Ridgeway

All right, guys. Well, I appreciate you coming on here.


[01:33:55.315] – Sam Ridgeway

I hope that you think it was fair to do this. We tried to make it fair for both sides. I didn’t want to ask you anything at all or to give you both an opportunity to talk. I think that happened, so I feel comfortable with it. I think it was an excellent learning experience for people out there to at least start considering things and taking in this information and then making their own decisions about their health and well-being. So, you know, maybe I will try getting off the AI or maybe I do want to try.


[01:34:17.635] – Sam Ridgeway

And I’ve gotten some of those symptoms people are talking about or whatever the case may be. But I think this is great. I appreciate both you coming here. And I hope you guys have a excellent and thank you for everybody bringing questions in as well. I wish I could have gotten to more of those, but like I said, we’re already an hour and a half into this. You can’t make it three hours long.


[01:34:34.315] – Sam Ridgeway

So stuff like this we could have. Right. Keep doing it. I appreciate it. And you guys have an awesome weekend again. Thank you so much.


[01:34:42.485] – Chris Neal

Guys, thanks a lot. Danny, nice to meet you.


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